Matt: Alrighty, welcome Café fans to another rousing rendition of After Hours. We took a little break from this feature thanks to our little thanksgiving fiasco, which we still haven’t fully recovered from. Those Yoshis leave a mess… Anyhoo, Today's topic deals with the ESRB, and whether or not they do what they are supposed to. Dannielle, you can start us off.

Dannielle: The ESRB has a noble aim, but in all honesty, how effective are they? The rating the ESRB gives only affects who can purchase what games in a miniscule number of stores, and aside from that, how accurate are their ratings anyway? We're talking about the board that gave Super Smash Bros. Melee a Teen Rating, for no reason other than a few characters were slightly realistic. I've already ranted about the M rating and its connotations in a home brew, but suffice to say that what it's given for and what it means to the public are two very different things. While I agree with what the ESRB was founded for, and what they're attempting to do, their efforts hardly matter when parents and other figures of authority pay no attention to the ratings the ESRB gives.

Bryan: The ESRB was indeed a good idea when it was first brought in. But lately, the ESRB has been way too easy giving games like BMX XXX only an M rating. If there were ever a game that received an AO rating, BMX would've been it. There are also problems with kids buying M rated games when they shouldn’t be. The whole purpose of the ESRB system was to make parents understand what kind of game a kid buys. But if the parents are ignoring what they’re playing, it defeats the purpose entirely.

Matt: While I agree that stores need to be more strict when selling/renting rated M games to kids, I do not agree that parents don't pay attention to the ratings. I work at Best Buy, before that Blockbuster, and before that a local video game store, and I was amazed at how many parents actually asked about ratings and why a game is rated the way it is. However, there were also the parents who knew a game was extremely violent but yet didn’t really give a damn and bought it for their 10 year old anyway because "games don't affect him." It worries me more that parents LET their kids play this stuff, more then it worries me when the parents aren’t paying attention to the ratings. As for the ESRB not rating fairly, it's true they don't. Just like the MPAA, the ESRB can give a lower rating if the publisher grants them a few "favors." Why else would XXX get an M?

Mike: The ESRB just extended the standard methods of ducking limits and regulations to a new venue. Parental attention aside, there are going to be kids who naturally appear older (i.e. taller for their age, more weathered face, etc. etc.), kids that have the 18+ friend/relative that will rent/buy the game for a small fee, even kids who will lie about the rating to their parents, in order to acquire funds. The ESRB isn't some shiny new catchall that will succeed in every mission. As long as underage kids see R movies, buy beer, and smoke cigarettes, they will too be able to play violent and sensual video games.

Carl: Do we even really need the ESRB? I mean, seriously...you know what my parents used to do when they saw an offensive image on TV or in movies or whatever? Tell me that that's NOT what you do in real life and explain to me the consequences both socially and mentally. It's not that parents let their kids play these games or don't know their kids are playing these games, but that they don't tell them that THEY ARE GAMES. First off, people that let games effect them are either mentally unstable to begin with or so young that they still can't distinguish between fantasy and reality yet, in either case, they shouldn't be playing games with any type of content.

Matt: But we DO need the ESRB, without it parents wouldn’t pay ANY attention to the games their kids play. In the past we didn’t need it because games weren’t realistic and there’s no way a kid could mistake it for so.

Carl: My parents paid attention when there wasn't an ESRB, if the parents care, they'll pay attention.

Matt: That's just it, the parents DON’T care.

Bryan: They need to take it to the next level to INFORM parents.

Carl: If the parents don't care, they should be locked up and their kid deserves to grow up stupid. If you're too stupid to teach your kid not to shoot somebody, you shouldn't be having kids to begin with, seriously is it so hard to teach your kid that killing another person is wrong? I think we need to find all the people that would make bad parents and give them signs saying "I'm stupid, don't let me reproduce."

Dannielle: The ESRB is necessary in most cases to give parents the hint... "You NEED to know about these issues."

Matt: Exactly, Dannielle. What I propose is to pass a bill through Congress - make it illegal to sell/rent games/movies that are rated M and R to minors. I'm sick of these kids, news shows, etc. saying games are the cause of violence. Whatever can be done to rid the industry of those rumors is a plus in my opinion.

Dannielle: I agree with that law... some argue that there are certainly mature people under the age of 18, but sadly, they're in the minority. It would keep the wrong games from ending up in the wrong hands.

Matt: Like I said, I've seen enough parents look at those ratings to make it worth it. People are stupid. You need to treat them that way. As long as ONE parent uses that rating, I say keep it. However there has to be more to it, it goes beyond the parents and to the stores that sell it to kids to begin with. At Best Buy we're told to sell what we can, regardless of age. So when a 10 year old comes up asking for GTA3 I have to give it to them.

Dannielle: It seems obvious, but the reality is that logic doesn't exactly work in real life. If the ESRB can encourage that thinking in any way, it has my approval. The issue that I have with the ESRB isn't whether or not they should exist; it's whether or not their ratings are accurate.

Carl: I fail to see how it is accurate.

Dannielle: It's not accurate, that's the problem I have.

Carl: Take GoldenEye versus Perfect Dark, the same damn game, add the color red and all of a sudden it's an M.

Dannielle: Exactly, the ESRB doesn't play the games. They look for certain "Red flags" that automatically raise a rating. Realism? It gets bumped up. Blood? Bumped up. Swearing? Bumped up. Until the M rating basically means nothing but "This game is full of stuff that younger kids are desperate to see because they think it makes them cool!" And I completely agree with Bryan about the AO rating's under use. Adults only is FAR more accurate than "Mature" in almost ALL cases.

Matt: There was also because of the Columbine incident, which rose what the “Red Flags” were for the M rating between the time Perfect Dark and GoldenEye came out. It's not the M that appeals to the kids, its that their older siblings and the people they look up to love these games. They think that they will be cool like their brothers if they play them. Which is why M games and R movies need to be outlawed from selling to minors. However, if congress only makes M games outlawed I'm against it. It has to work both ways.

Carl: As long as there are M games, there will be kids wanting to play them and playing them just because they're not supposed to...it's like having a Forbidden Closet of Mystery in your house...your kid will open it no matter how many times you tell him not to.

Dannielle: Still, what if they used the Adults Only rating? Instead of parents thinking, "My kid has to be mature," they will think "Oh, my kid shouldn't be playing this under ANY circumstances." If you can't look at porn until you're 18, you shouldn't be allowed to buy BMX XXX until you're 18. It's that simple. It's the principle I'm getting at, here.

Bryan: Exactly. It’s like the parents don’t even care about their child. They don’t check what they’re child is playing. I’m still waiting to see what the ESRB is calling "AO" since BMX XXX is clearly an AO game. BMX XXX was probably rated M because of the piss poor graphics, that’s the only reason I can think of.

Matt: Well I have no problem with XXX, because hardly any stores sell it.

Carl: Perhaps the T rating should be turned to M, the M rating to AO, and the AO rating to MAO (Mature Adults Only). Make the T rating mean less than it does now, and make T be viewed more as PG rating than anything else.

Bryan: That’s a good idea. Get rid of the M rating and just stick all the controversial games with an AO.

Matt: T should be kept for games like SSBM, but games like XXX and GTA, belong as AO. What I'm surprised about is that XXX made it on the Cube uncensored. What ever happened to Nintendo being "family oriented"? It seems in trying to raise the public opinion they've forgotten what they've stood for since day one.

Dannielle: Their push to appeal to "mature" audiences went a little too far in that instance, I'm guessing.

Carl: They still want to be family oriented, but they don't want third parties to think that they're ONLY family oriented...they just went a bit more overboard than we would have wanted or expected.

Matt: What you guys fail to realize is that the AO rating is banned in almost ALL retail stores. The only place you can find the few AO games there are, are in porno shops. Getting an AO is like NC-17, it drops the number of people who see a game/movie to a tenth at best case scenario.

Dannielle: And that's where most of these games belong, Matt. The ESRB should give the rating a game deserves, despite where it can or can't be sold. That's not their business at all.

Matt: That's where XXX belongs. Games like GTA3 don’t however. It isn’t their business, but the companies push the ESRB for lower ratings just like companies push the MPAA for lower ratings in movies.

Carl: BMX XXX belongs in the back of the video stores with the pornos.

Bryan: They went a little too far with Conker for the N64. That’s also an AO contender, too.

Dannielle: Not really Bryan. The game is far more internally censored than people think.

Matt: Didn’t Conker originally got an AO? I thought it had to be toned down a bit.

Dannielle: It was the censorship of the word "Cocksucker." That was the difference between AO and M.

Carl: There was even an interview with one of the developers a while back and he admitted that the Conker we saw was EXTREMELY toned down from what they had originally done. I remember the quote “There’s one version of Conker that no one will ever, ever see.”

Bryan: But nonetheless, it should be somewhat close to an AO rating. Its slightly more offensive than other M rated games.

Matt: And BMX XXX originally got an AO also, I think. Didn’t they have to take some of the stripper scenes out?

Carl: I believe they did, yes.

Bryan: I think that any game with nudity deserves an AO rating.

Matt: I think that they should just rename Mature - keep the ratings the same, but make Mature sound like it is something that is more… NOT FOR KIDS. I am not sure if parents realize Mature means what it is supposed to.

Dannielle: I'm almost sure that most kids and parents don't know what an M rating means.

Mike: Agreed. One of the biggest bragging rights parents compete for is how their kid is "so mature for their age"

Carl: I think R works well, you can't really mistake the meaning of the word "Restricted." Hell, even changing the M rating to just 17 or 18 rating would be better.

Matt: Exactly, Carl.

Dannielle: No parent wants to think of their precious baby as immature. R would be a much better choice.

Bryan: R would suit nicely. We all know how parents don’t want their kids seeing R rated movies. With an R rating with games, it can get a lot more difficult for a kid to get a game like Vice City.

Matt: What gets me is that NO parent would allow their kid to see Clerks, but they have no problem with them playing GTA3. I have proof of that tonight. I was helping some lady pick out DVDs for her kid’s Christmas presents and she mentioned Kevin Smith. THEN I find out this movie is for a 14 year old. So being the moral person I am, I explain what the movies are like and she gets pissed that her kid saw this somehow. Then she asks me where GTA3 is. Of course I explain what it is about too, but only to hear "but that’s just a video game.”

Mike: But, see, the parents aren't always as in control as they let themselves to believe. I saw Clerks when I was 10, and it was my brother who rented it for me. I got away with it because he had his own place at that time.

Dannielle: It never fails to amuse me when you hear stories about parents taking games back, horrified that they weren't told of the content they contained, when the M rating is right there on the box.

Carl: What the fuck is wrong with people's minds? They can't let their kid watch an R rated movie but they'll let them blow people's heads off?

Bryan: I can usually get an M rated game easy. The only game at my local video store that I wouldn’t be able to get is Conker.

Dannielle: How can a movie affect a child, but an interactive piece of software with the exact same content can't?

Matt: I love the quote that we had in our topic for a few days. Regular chatter POKETNRJSH, who is 13 years old, told us that he “can't walk in and rent Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance by myself for Cube, but I can rent BMX XXX.” THAT is what is wrong with the world today.

Carl: The most experience I've ever had with an M rating being enforced was when I rented Conker the checkout lady said "You're 17, right?" I said yes and that was all, she didn't even ask for ID (Yes, I was 17 at the time).

Dannielle: I've never had a problem. I buy M rated games, and no one says a word to me about it.

Matt: The ONLY M games I played until I was 17 were Doom, Doom 2, and Perfect Dark. I played Mortal Kombat, but my parents strongly disapproved and I only played that because my other friends rented/bought it and would bring it over. My parents were fairly strict about that kind of thing, as parents should be.

Bryan: That’s what parents don’t understand. The video game is fake and it can’t affect their kids. Well, the movie a kid can see is fake so wouldn’t it have the same affect? Also, mobster games are based on R-rated movies. Parents still fail to see a game called "Grand Theft Auto" and think it’s a game like Mario.

Matt: I had a parent this week thinking Grand Theft Auto was a racing game. She almost shit herself when I told her you killed people and picked up hookers.

Dannielle: It's not that, although those issues do arise (let's not forget the woman who took Conker back to her local game retailer, pissed that the game wasn't about a harmless squirrel). It's that most parents overestimate their children.

Matt: It's also that children are lying, scheming little punks >:)

Dannielle: That, too.

Matt: To all the Congressmen out there: MAKE IT ILLEGAL TO SELL/RENT M GAMES AND R MOVIES TO MINORS! In my honest opinion, that would solve almost everything. If by law you are required to tell everyone who buys an M game or R movie what exactly it is and card them, parents will start to pay attention. The ESRB also has to wake up and realize that the ratings are being overlooked and should rethink their system. With those two changes all that we have been discussing tonight would be fixed.

Bryan: I agree that we should enforce tougher rules with kids buying M rated games. It’s starting to get to the point where videogames are causing the blame for almost any violent attack. I’m tired of it. Why doesn’t Congress do something about it, damn it? Because the media is having a field day, continually bashing video games as a virtual way of killing people. The ESRB is being way too lenient with their ratings, and they need to toughen up. Overall, there needs to be some way of restricting M rated games to children. End of story.

Mike: I was visiting family on Long Island once and some Indie video store clerk had a really good idea. The mother was scolding a kid for trying to sneak a slasher flick by her, but didn't contest Mortal Kombat 4. The clerk then popped MK4 into an N64, hooked it up, and showed the mother what she was doing. This is something I could see being used more and more, to try and raise some awareness of where games are these days. Things have advanced so far beyond Pac-Man that it’s not funny. If some movement was made to show parents where games are these days, and where they fall in relation to the ESRB rating system, you'd see the effectiveness go up tenfold.

Dannielle: Ok, parents and authority figures in general need to pay more attention to what constitutes a game rating... we're all in agreement about that, it seems. A law that restricted minors' access to games they should be playing in the first place makes perfect sense to me -- if they can't watch it in the movies, they shouldn't be able to play it on their GameCube. Also, the ratings given should be altered, at least slightly, to make it more obvious to apparently slow people who think that "Mature" means something other than "Not for kids." Whether it's by changing the M rating to something more obviously geared against children, or rating things more harshly, something needs to be done to combat that issue. My fear, of course, is that the wrong games will suffer from increased security. The ESRB makes sense, but some of the things they do are completely nonsensical. The problems addressed here need to be remedied before my faith in their ability to accurately rate games and protect kids from games they shouldn't play is restored. Perhaps if the ESRB was... better at what they do, news stations and vehement Congressmen would have less fodder to feed on about games corrupting the Nation's youth.

Carl: So what have we determined tonight? Parents are idiots, children are scheming little punks, and the ESRB has no idea what the hell is going on and that their rating system sucks. Will it be changed any time soon? Probably not. Welcome to America, where we corrupt our youth because it's cool. Yay for retarded societal values.